Saṃyutta Nikāya
II. Nidāna Vagga
12. Nidāna Saṃyutta
3. Dasa-Balā Vagga
Sutta 24
Añña-Titthiya Suttaṃ
Teachers of Another Position
Translated from the Pāḷi
by
Michael M. Olds
Once Upon a Time, The Lucky Man, Rajagaha
Bamboo Grove,
came-a revisiting.
There then Old Man Sāriputta
aforetime having taken up his bowl and robes,
entered Rājagaha to go on his begging rounds.
Then Old Man Sāriputta thought to himself:
"It is too early
to seek alms in Rājagaha,
how about if I go to the forest grove and
approach the wanderers of other positions?"
So then Old Man Sāriputta
went to the forest grove, and
approached the wanderers of other positions.
Having approached
the wanderers of other positions
he exchanged friendly greetings.
Having exchanged friendly greetings
he took a seat to one side.
Old Man Sāriputta
having taken a seat to one side,
the wanderers of other positions
said this to him:
"There are, friend Sāriputta,
some shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by the self.
There are also, friend Sāriputta,
some shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by another.
There are also, friend Sāriputta,
some shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is both
made by the self and
made by another.
There are also, friend Sāriputta,
some shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain neither
made by the self nor
made by another but
is spontaneously self-arisen.
Here, friend Sāriputta,
what does the Shaman Gotama say,
what does he teach?
How relating and
speaking accurately,
in such a way as to be blameless,
do we explain his
Dhamma within the Dhamma and
not falsely misrepresent
the Shaman Gotama
by contesting his Dhamma
with what is not-Dhamma?"
"Well then, friend,
The Lucky Man speaks of pain as
reboundingly-self-arisen.
Off what rebounding?
Off touch rebounding.
In this way one would be
relating and
speaking accurately,
in such a way as to be blameless,
explaining his
Dhamma within the Dhamma and
not falsely misrepresent
The Lucky Man
by contesting his Dhamma
with what is not-Dhamma.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by the self,
that is actually a rebound off touch.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by another,
that is actually a rebound off touch.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is both
made by the self and
made by another,
that is actually a rebound off touch.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain neither
made by the self nor
made by another but
is spontaneously self-arisen,
that is actually a rebound off touch.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by the self,
that they could thus experience
another way than through touch —
such a thing is not to be seen.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by another,
that they could thus experience
another way than through touch —
such a thing is not to be seen.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is both
made by the self and
made by another,
that they could thus experience
another way than through touch —
such a thing is not to be seen.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain neither
made by the self nor
made by another but
is spontaneously self-arisen,
that they could thus experience
another way than through touch —
such a thing is not to be seen."
§
Now Old Man Ānanda, had overheard
Old Man Sāriputta's conversational-talk
with the wanderers of other positions.
There then, Old Man Ānanda
went to where The Lucky Man was located,
where he drew near and
having drawn near The Lucky Man,
having given salutation,
took a seat to one side.
Having taken a seat to one side then,
Old Man Ānanda related to The Lucky Man
what he had heard
of Old Man Sāriputta's conversational-talk
with the wanderers of other positions:
"Old Man Sāriputta
aforetime having taken up his bowl and robes,
entered Rājagaha to go on his begging rounds.
But as it was too early
to seek alms in Rājagaha,
Old Man Sāriputta
went to the forest grove, and
approached the wanderers of other positions.
Having approached
the wanderers of other positions
he exchanged friendly greetings.
Having exchanged friendly greetings
he took a seat to one side.
Old Man Sāriputta
having taken a seat to one side then,
the wanderers of other positions
said this to him:
'There are, friend Sāriputta,
some shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by the self.
There are also, friend Sāriputta,
some shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by another.
There are also, friend Sāriputta,
some shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is both
made by the self and
made by another.
There are also, friend Sāriputta,
some shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain neither
made by the self nor
made by another but
is spontaneously self-arisen.
Here, friend Sāriputta,
what does the Shaman Gotama say,
what does he teach?
How relating and
speaking accurately,
in such a way as to be blameless,
do we explain his
Dhamma within the Dhamma and
not falsely misrepresent
the Shaman Gotama
by contesting his Dhamma
with what is not-Dhamma?'
'Well then, friend,
The Lucky Man speaks of pain as
reboundingly-self-arisen.
Off what rebounding?
Off touch rebounding.
In this way one would be
relating and
speaking accurately,
in such a way as to be blameless,
explaining his
Dhamma within the Dhamma and
not falsely misrepresenting
The Lucky Man
by contesting his Dhamma
with what is not-Dhamma.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by the self,
that is actually a rebound off touch.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by another,
that is actually a rebound off touch.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is both
made by the self and
made by another,
that is actually a rebound off touch.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain neither
made by the self nor
made by another but
is spontaneously self-arisen,
that is actually a rebound off touch.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by the self,
that they could thus experience
another way than through touch —
such a thing is not to be seen.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by another,
that they could thus experience
another way than through touch —
such a thing is not to be seen.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is both
made by the self and
made by another,
that they could thus experience
another way than through touch —
such a thing is not to be seen.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain neither
made by the self nor
made by another but
is spontaneously self-arisen,
that they could thus experience
another way than through touch —
such a thing is not to be seen.'"
■
"Well done, well done Ānanda![1]
And as Sāriputta answered
this was consummately answered.
I have said, Ānanda,
that pain is reboundingly self-arisen.
Rebounding off what?
Rebounding off touch.
In this way one would be
relating and
speaking accurately,
in such a way as to be blameless,
explaining this
Dhamma within the Dhamma and
not falsely misrepresenting me
by contesting this Dhamma
with what is not-Dhamma.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by the self,
that is actually a rebound off touch.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by another,
that is actually a rebound off touch.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is both
made by the self and
made by another,
that is actually a rebound off touch.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain neither
made by the self nor
made by another but
is spontaneously self-arisen,
that is actually a rebound off touch.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by the self,
that they could thus experience
another way than through touch —
such a thing is not to be seen.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by another,
that they could thus experience
another way than through touch —
such a thing is not to be seen.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is both
made by the self and
made by another,
that they could thus experience
another way than through touch —
such a thing is not to be seen.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain neither
made by the self nor
made by another but
is spontaneously self-arisen,
that they could thus experience
another way than through touch —
such a thing is not to be seen.
§
One time I was residing
here in Rajagaha,
Bamboo Grove,
Squirrels' Feeding Ground.
There then I, Ānanda,
having aforetime taken up my bowl and robes,
entered Rājagaha to go on my begging rounds.
Then I thought to myself:
'It is as yet too early
to seek alms in Rājagaha,
how about if I go to the forest grove and
approach the wanderers of other positions?'
So then I went to the forest grove, and
approached the wanderers of other positions.
Having approached
the wanderers of other positions
I exchanged friendly greetings.
Having exchanged friendly greetings
I took a seat to one side.
Having taken a seat to one side then, Ānanda,
the wanderers of other positions
said this to me:
'There are, friend Gotama,
some shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by the self.
There are also, friend Gotama,
some shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by another.
There are also, friend Gotama,
some shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is both
made by the self and
made by another.
There are also, friend Gotama,
some shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain neither
made by the self nor
made by another but
is spontaneously self-arisen.
Here, then, what does friend Gotama say,
what does he teach?
How relating and
speaking accurately,
in such a way as to be blameless,
do we explain his
Dhamma within the Dhamma and
not falsely misrepresent
friend Gotama
by contesting his Dhamma
with what is not-Dhamma?'
This was my response
to those wanderers of other positions:
'I, friend, speak of pain as
reboundingly-self-arisen.
Off what rebounding?
Off touch rebounding.
In this way one would be
relating and
speaking accurately,
in such a way as to be blameless,
explaining my
Dhamma within the Dhamma and
not falsely misrepresenting me
by contesting my Dhamma
with what is not-Dhamma.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by the self,
that is actually a rebound off touch.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by another,
that is actually a rebound off touch.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is both
made by the self and
made by another,
that is actually a rebound off touch.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain neither
made by the self nor
made by another but
is spontaneously self-arisen,
that is actually a rebound off touch.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by the self,
that they could thus experience
another way than through touch —
such a thing is not to be seen.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is
made by another,
that they could thus experience
another way than through touch —
such a thing is not to be seen.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain is both
made by the self and
made by another,
that they could thus experience
another way than through touch —
such a thing is not to be seen.
As to those shamans and Brahmins,
speakers on kamma
who lay down the view
that pain neither
made by the self nor
made by another but
is spontaneously self-arisen,
that they could thus experience
another way than through touch —
such a thing is not to be seen.'"
■
"Wonderful, Bhante!
Marvelous, Bhante!
That this entire list
can be dealt with by a single phrase.
Now then, Bhante,
is it possible
to put this matter in detail and
thus say what is deep
in a way which looks deep?"
"Well then, Ānanda,
let such a thing
occur to you."
§
"If, Bhante,
they were to put this question to me:
'Aging and death, friend Ānanda,
to what is it tied,
what is its arising,
what is its birth,
what brings it about?'
Asked this question, Bhante,
I would reply thus:
'Tied to birth, friend,
is aging and death
it is through birth that it arises,
it is through birth that it is born,
it is through birth that it is brought about.
Thus asked, Bhante, such would be my response.
-◦-
If, Bhante,
they were to put this question to me:
'Birth, friend Ānanda,
to what is it tied,
what is its arising,
what is its birth,
what brings it about?'
Asked this question, Bhante, I would reply thus:
'Tied to existence, friend,
is birth
it is through existence that it arises,
it is through existence that it is born,
it is through existence that it is brought about.
Thus asked, Bhante, such would be my response.
-◦-
If, Bhante,
they were to put this question to me:
'Existence, friend Ānanda,
to what is it tied,
what is its arising,
what is its birth,
what brings it about?'
Asked this question, Bhante, I would reply thus:
'Tied to bind-ups, friend,
is existence
it is through bind-ups that it arises,
it is through bind-ups that it is born,
it is through bind-ups that it is brought about.
Thus asked, Bhante, such would be my response.
-◦-
If, Bhante,
they were to put this question to me:
'Bind-ups, friend Ānanda,
to what are they tied,
what is their arising,
what is their birth
what brings them about?'
Asked this question, Bhante, I would reply thus:
'Tied to thirst, friend,
are bind-ups,
it is through thirst that they arises,
it is through thirst that they are born,
it is through thirst that they are brought about.
Thus asked, Bhante, such would be my response.
-◦-
If, Bhante,
they were to put this question to me:
'Thirst, friend Ānanda,
to what is it tied,
what is its arising,
what is its birth,
what brings it about?'
Asked this question, Bhante, I would reply thus:
'Tied to sensation, friend,
is thirst
it is through sensation that it arises,
it is through sensation that it is born,
it is through sensation that it is brought about.
Thus asked, Bhante, such would be my response.
-◦-
If, Bhante,
they were to put this question to me:
'Sensation, friend Ānanda,
to what is it tied,
what is its arising,
what is its birth,
what brings it about?'
Asked this question, Bhante, I would reply thus:
'Tied to touch, friend,
is sensation
it is through touch that it arises,
it is through touch that it is born,
it is through touch that it is brought about.
Thus asked, Bhante, such would be my response.
-◦-
If, Bhante,
they were to put this question to me:
'Touch, friend Ānanda,
to what is it tied,
what is its arising,
what is its birth,
what brings it about?'
Asked this question, Bhante, I would reply thus:
'Tied to the six-realms, friend,
is touch
it is through the six-realms that it arises,
it is through the six-realms that it is born,
it is through the six-realms that it is brought about.
Thus asked, Bhante, such would be my response.
-◦-
If, Bhante,
they were to put this question to me:
'The six-realms, friend Ānanda,
to what are they tied,
what is their arising,
what is their birth
what brings them about?'
Asked this question, Bhante, I would reply thus:
'Tied to named form, friend,
are the six-realms
it is through named form that they arise,
it is through named form that they are born,
it is through named form that they are brought about.
Thus asked, Bhante, such would be my response.
-◦-
If, Bhante,
they were to put this question to me:
'Named form, friend Ānanda,
to what is it tied,
what is its arising,
what is its birth,
what brings it about?'
Asked this question, Bhante, I would reply thus:
'Tied to consciousness, friend,
is named form
it is through consciousness that it arises,
it is through consciousness that it is born,
it is through consciousness that it is brought about.
Thus asked, Bhante, such would be my response.
-◦-
If, Bhante,
they were to put this question to me:
'Consciousness, friend Ānanda,
to what is it tied,
what is its arising,
what is its birth,
what brings it about?'
Asked this question, Bhante, I would reply thus:
'Tied to own-making, friend,
is consciousness
it is through own-making that it arises,
it is through own-making that it is born,
it is through own-making that it is brought about.
Thus asked, Bhante, such would be my response.
-◦-
If, Bhante,
they were to put this question to me:
'Own-making, friend Ānanda,
to what is it tied,
what is its arising,
what is its birth,
what brings it about?'
Asked this question, Bhante, I would reply thus:
'Tied to blindness, friend,
is own-making
it is through blindness that it arises,
it is through blindness that it is born,
it is through blindness that it is brought about.
Thus asked, Bhante, such would be my response."
[1] The text abridges here without the usual "...pe...".
