Majjhima Nikāya
1. Mūla-Paṇṇāsa
2. Sīhanāda Vagga

The Middle Length Sayings
I. The First Fifty Discourses
2. The Division of the Lion's Roar

Sutta 13

Mahā Dukkha-k-Khandha Suttaṃ

Greater Discourse on
the Stems of Anguish

Translated from the Pali by I.B. Horner, O.B.E., M.A.
Associate of Newham College, Cambridge
First Published in 1954

[1][chlm][than][ntbb][upal] THUS have I heard:

At one time the Lord was staying near Sāvatthī
in the Jeta Grove in Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery.

[2] Then several^[1] monks, having dressed in the morning,
taking their bowls and [111] robes,
entered Sāvatthī for almsfood.

Then it occurred to these monks;

"It is too early to walk for almsfood in Sāvatthī.

Suppose we were to approach the park^[2]
of the wanderers belonging to other sects?"

Then these monks approached the park
of the wanderers belonging to other sects;
having approached,
they exchanged greetings
with the wanderers belonging to other sects,
and having exchanged greetings
of courtesy and friendliness,
they sat down at a respectful distance.

As these monks were sitting down at a respectful distance,
these wanderers belonging to other sects spoke thus to them:

[3] "Your reverences, the recluse Gotama
lays down the full understanding^[3] of sense-pleasures;
we too lay down the full understanding of sense-pleasures.

Your reverences, the recluse Gotama
lays down the full understanding of material shapes;^[4]
we too lay down the full understanding of material shapes.

Your reverences, the recluse Gotama
lays down the full understanding of feelings;
we too lay down the full understanding of feelings.

So, your reverences, herein
what is the divergence,
what the discrepancy,
what the difference
between the recluse Gotama and us,
that is to say in Dhamma-teaching
as against Dhamma-teaching,
in instruction
as against instruction?"

[4] Then those monks neither rejoiced in
nor scoffed at
what the wanderers belonging to other sects had said.

Rising from their seats
they departed,
not rejoicing,
not scoffing,
but thinking:

"We shall learn the meaning of what has been said
in the Lord's presence."

■

[5] Then these monks
having walked for almsfood in Sāvatthī,
returning from the alms-gathering after the meal,
approached the Lord;
having approached,
having greeted the Lord,
they sat down at a respectful distance.

As they were sitting down at a respectful distance,
these monks spoke thus to the Lord:

"Now we, Lord, having dressed in the morning,
taking our bowls and robes,
entered Sāvatthī for almsfood.

It occurred to us, Lord:

'It is too early to walk for almsfood in Sāvatthī.

Suppose [112] we were to approach the park
of the wanderers belonging to other sects?'

So we, Lord, approached the park
of the wanderers belonging to other sects
and exchanged greetings
with the wanderers belonging to other sects,
and having exchanged greetings of courtesy and friendliness,
we sat down at a respectful distance.

As we were sitting down at a respectful distance,
these wanderers belonging to other sects spoke thus to us:

'Your reverences, the recluse Gotama
lays down the full understanding of sense-pleasures;
we too lay down the full understanding of sense-pleasures.

Your reverences, the recluse Gotama
lays down the full understanding of material shapes;
we too lay down the full understanding of material shapes.

Your reverences, the recluse Gotama
lays down the full understanding of feelings;
we too lay down the full understanding of feelings.

So, your reverences, herein
what is the divergence,
what the discrepancy,
what the difference
between the recluse Gotama
and us,
that is to say in Dhamma-teaching
as against Dhamma-teaching,
in instruction
as against instruction?'

Then we neither rejoiced in
nor scoffed at
what the wanderers belonging to other sects had said.

Rising from our seats
we departed,
not rejoicing,
not scoffing,
but thinking:

'We shall learn the meaning of what has been said in the Lord's presence.'"

[6] "Monks, wanderers belonging to other sects
who speak thus
should be spoken to thus:

'But what, your reverences,
is the satisfaction in pleasures of the senses,
what the peril,
what the escape (from them)?

But what, your reverences,
is the satisfaction in material shapes,
what the peril,
what the escape (from them)?

But what, your reverences,
is the satisfaction in pleasures of feelings,
what the peril,
what the escape (from them)?'

Monks, when wanderers belonging to other sects
are questioned in this way,
they will not be able to explain,
and moreover they will get into further difficulties.^[5]

What is the reason for this?

It is that it is not within their scope.

I, monks, do not see anyone in the world
with its devas,
Maras and Brahmas,
in creation
with its recluses and brahmans,
its devas and men,
who could win approbation
with his answers to these questions
except a Tathāgata
or a Tathāgata's disciple
or one who has heard (the teaching) from them.

[7] And what, monks, is the satisfaction
in pleasures of the senses?^[6]

These five, monks,
are the strands of sense-pleasures.^[7]

What five?

Material shapes cognisable by the eye,
agreeable,
pleasant,
liked,
enticing,
connected with sensual pleasures,
alluring.

Sounds cognisable by the ear,
agreeable,
pleasant,
liked,
enticing,
connected with sensual pleasures,
alluring.

Smells cognisable by the nose,
agreeable,
pleasant,
liked,
enticing,
connected with sensual pleasures,
alluring.

Tastes cognisable by the tongue,
agreeable,
pleasant,
liked,
enticing,
connected with sensual pleasures,
alluring.

Touches cognisable by the body,
agreeable,
pleasant,
liked,
enticing,
connected with sensual pleasures,
alluring.

These, monks, are the five strands of sense-pleasures.

■

Whatever pleasure,
whatever happiness
arises in consequence of these five strands of sense-pleasures,
this is the satisfaction in sense-pleasures.

[8] And what, monks, is the peril in sense-pleasures?

In this case, monks,
a young man of family
earns his living by some craft,
such as reckoning on the fingers,^[8]
such as calculation,^[9]
such as [113] computing,^[10]
such as agriculture,^[11]
such as being in a rajah's service,^[12]
such as by another craft.^[13]

He is afflicted by the cold,^[14]
he is afflicted by the heat,
suffering from the touch of gadflies,
mosquitoes,
wind,
sun,
creeping things,
dying of hunger and thirst.

This, monks, is a peril
in pleasures of the senses
that is present,
a stem of ill,^[15]
having pleasures of the senses as the cause,
having pleasures of the senses as the provenance,
being a consequence of pleasures of the senses,
the very cause of pleasures of the senses.

■

[9] If, monks, this young man of family
rouses himself,
exerts himself,
strives thus,
but if these possessions do not come to his hand,
he grieves,
mourns,
laments,
beating his breast
and wailing,
he falls into disillusionment,^[16] and thinks:

'Indeed my exertion is vain,
indeed my striving is fruitless.'

This too, monks, is a peril
in the pleasures of the senses
that is present,
a stem of ill,
having pleasures of the senses as the cause,
having pleasures of the senses as the provenance,
being a consequence of pleasures of the senses,
the very cause of pleasures of the senses.

■

[10] If, monks, this young man of family
rouses himself,
exerts himself,
strives thus,
and these possessions come to his hand,
he experiences suffering and sorrow
in consequence of looking after them,
and thinks:

'Now by what means
may neither kings nor thieves
take away my possessions,
nor fire burn them,
nor water carry them away,
nor heirs whom I do not like
take them away?'^[17]

Although he looks after these possessions
and guards them,
kings do take them away
or thieves take them away,
or fire burns them
or water carries them away,
or heirs whom he does not like
take them away.

He grieves,
mourns,
laments,
beating his breast and wailing,
he falls into disillusionment,
and thinks:

'I do not even have that which was mine.'

■

[11] And again, monks,
when sense-pleasures are the cause,
sense-pleasures the provenance,
sense-pleasures the consequence,
the very [114] cause of sense-pleasures,
kings dispute with kings,
nobles dispute with nobles,
brahmans dispute with brahmans,
householders dispute with householders,
a mother disputes with her son,
a son disputes with his mother,
a father disputes with his son,
a son disputes with his father,
a brother disputes with a brother,
a brother disputes with a sister,
a sister disputes with a brother,
a friend disputes with a friend.

Those who enter into quarrel,
contention,
dispute and attack one another
with their hands
and with stones^[18]
and with sticks
and with weapons,^[19]
these suffer dying then
and pain like unto dying.

This too, monks,
is a peril in the pleasures of the senses
that is present,
a stem of ill,
having pleasures of the senses as the cause,
having pleasures of the senses as the provenance,
being a consequence of pleasures of the senses,
the very cause of pleasures of the senses.

■

[12] And again, monks,
when sense-pleasures are the cause,
sense-pleasures the provenance,
sense-pleasures the consequence,
the very cause of sense-pleasures,
having taken sword and shield,
having girded on bow and quiver,
both sides mass for battle
and arrows are hurled
and knives are hurled
and swords are flashing.

These who wound with arrows
and wound with knives
and decapitate with their swords,
these suffer dying then
and pain like unto dying.

■

[13] And again, monks,
when sense-pleasures are the cause,
sense-pleasures the provenance,
sense-pleasures the consequence,
the very cause of sense-pleasures,
having taken sword and shield,
having girded on bow and quiver,
they leap on to the newly daubed^[20] ramparts,
and arrows are hurled
and knives are hurled
and swords are flashing.

Those who wound with arrows
and wound with knives
and pour boiling cow-dung^[21] over them
and crush them with the (falling) portcullis
and decapitate them with their swords,
these suffer dying then
and pain like unto dying.

■

[14] And again, monks,
when sense-pleasures are the cause,
sense-pleasures the provenance,
sense-pleasures the consequence,
the very cause of sense-pleasures,
they break into a house
and carry off the booty
and behave as a thief
and wait in ambush
and go to other [115] men's wives.^[22]

Kings, having arrested such a one,
deal out various punishments:^[23]

They lash him with whips
and they lash him with canes
and they lash him with (birch) rods,
and they cut off his hand,
and they cut off his foot,
and they cut off his hand and foot,
and they cut off his ear,
and they cut off his nose,
and they cut off his ear and nose,
and they give him the 'gruel-pot'^[24] punishment,
and they give him the 'shell-tonsure' punishment,
and they give him the 'Rahu's mouth,' punishment,
and they give him the 'fire-garland' punishment,
and they give him the 'flaming hand' punishment,
and they give him the 'hay-twist' punishment,
and they give him the 'bark-dress' punishment,
and they give him the 'antelope' punishment,
and they give him the 'flesh-hooking' punishment,
and they give him the 'disc-slice' punishment,
and they give him the 'pickling process' punishment,
and they give him the 'circling the pin,' punishment,
and they give him the 'straw mattress,' punishment,
and they spray him with boiling oil,
give him as food to the dogs,
impale him alive on stakes
and decapitate him with a sword.

This too, monks, is a peril in the pleasures of the senses that is present,
a stem of ill,
having pleasures of the senses as the cause,
having pleasures of the senses as the provenance,
being a consequence of pleasures of the senses,
the very cause of pleasures of the senses.

■

[15] And again, monks,
when sense-pleasures are the cause,
sense-pleasures the provenance,
sense-pleasures the consequence,
the very cause of sense-pleasures,
they behave wrongly in body,
they behave wrongly in speech,
they behave wrongly in thought.

These, having behaved wrongly in body,
in speech,
in thought,
at the breaking up of the body after dying,
arise in a sorrowful state,
a bad bourn,
the abyss,
Niraya Hell.

This, monks, is a peril in pleasures of the senses
that is of the future,
a stem of ill,
having pleasures of the senses as the cause,
having pleasures of the senses as the provenance,
being a consequence of pleasures of the senses,
the very cause of pleasures of the senses.

[16] And what, monks, is the escape from pleasures of the senses?

Whatever, monks, is the control of
desire for and attachment to
pleasures of the senses,
the getting rid of the desire and attachment,
this is the escape from pleasures of the senses.^[25]

[17] Monks, whatever recluses or brahmans^[26]
do not thus comprehend the satisfaction in pleasures of the senses
as satisfaction,
the peril
as peril,
the escape
as escape
as it really is,
these indeed will neither know their own sense-pleasures accurately,
nor will they arouse another to a similar condition^[27]
so that, as he fares along,
he will know sense-pleasures accurately -
this situation does not exist.

[116] But, monks, whatever recluses or brahmans comprehend thus
the satisfaction in pleasures of the senses
as satisfaction,
the peril
as peril,
the escape
as escape
as it really is,
these indeed either know their own sense-pleasures accurately,
or they will arouse another to a similar condition,
so that, as he fares along,
he will know sense-pleasures accurately -
this situation exists.

[18] And what, monks, is the satisfaction in material shapes?

Monks, it is like a girl in a noble's family
or a brahman's family
or a householder's family
who at the age of fifteen or sixteen
is not too tall,
not too short,
not too thin,
not too fat,
not too dark,
not too fair -
is she, monks,
at the height of her beauty and loveliness at that time?"

"Yes, Lord."

"Monks, whatever happiness and pleasure arise
because of beauty and loveliness,
this is satisfaction in material shapes.^[28]

[19] And what, monks, is peril in material shapes?

As to this, monks,
one might see that same lady^[29]
after a time,
eighty
or ninety
or a hundred years old,
aged,
crooked as a rafter,
bent,
leaning on a stick,
going along palsied,
miserable,
youth gone,
teeth broken,
hair thinned,
skin wrinkled,
stumbling along,
the limbs discoloured.

What would you think, monks?

That that which was former
beauty and loveliness
has vanished,
a peril has appeared?"

"Yes, Lord."