Majjhima Nikaya


[Home]  [Sutta Indexes]  [Glossology]  [Site Sub-Sections]


 

Majjhima Nikāya
II. Majjhima-Paṇṇāsa
1. Gahapati Vagga

The Middle Length Sayings
II. The Middle Fifty Discourses
1. The Division on Householders

Sutta 56

Upāli Suttaɱ

Discourse with Upāli

Translated from the Pali by I.B. Horner, M.A.
Associate of Newham College, Cambridge
First Published in 1954

Copyright The Pali Text Society
Commercial Rights Reserved
Creative Commons Licence
For details see Terms of Use.

Scanned, digitized and proofread by Waiyin Chow; proofread by Alexander Genaud.

 


[371] [36]

[1][chlm][upal][than] Thus have I heard:

At one time the Lord was staying near Nāḷandā in Pāvārika's[1] Mango Grove.

Now at that time Nātaputta the Jain was residing in Nāḷandā with a large company of Jains.

Then Dīghatapassin[2] the Jain, having walked in Nāḷandā for almsfood, returning from the alms-gathering after the meal, approached Pāvārika's Mango Grove and the Lord; [372] having approached, he exchanged greetings with the Lord; having conversed in a friendly and courteous way, he stood at a respectful distance.

The Lord spoke thus to Dīghatapassin the Jain as he was standing at a respectful distance:

"There are seats, Tapassin; if you wish, do sit down."

When this had been said, Dīghatapassin the Jain, having taken a low seat, sat down at a respectful distance.

The Lord spoke thus to Dīghatapassin the Jain as he was sitting down at a respectful distance:

"How many (kinds of) deeds, Tapassin, does Nātaputta the Jain lay down for the effecting of an evil deed, for the rolling on of an evil deed?"

"Friend Gotama, it is not the custom of Nātaputta the Jain to lay down 'deed, deed'; friend Gotama, it is the custom of Nātaputta the Jain to lay down 'wrong, wrong.'"[3]

"How many (kinds of) wrongs, Tapassin, does Nātaputta the [37] Jain lay down for the effecting of an evil deed, for the rolling on of an evil deed?"

"Friend Gotama, Nātaputta the Jain lays down three (kinds of) wrongs for the effecting of an evil deed, for the rolling on of an evil deed, that is to say wrong of body, wrong of speech, wrong of mind."[4]

"But, Tapassin, is wrong of body one thing, wrong of speech another, wrong of mind another?"

"Friend Gotama, wrong of body is one thing, wrong of speech another, wrong of mind another."

"But, Tapassin, of these three wrongs thus divided, thus particularised, which is the wrong that Nātaputta the Jain lays down as the more blamable in the effecting of an evil deed, in the rolling on of an evil deed?

Is it wrong of body or is it wrong of speech or is it wrong of mind?"

"Friend Gotama, of these three wrongs thus divided, thus particularised, Nātaputta the Jain lays down that wrong of body is the more blamable in the effecting of an evil deed, in the rolling on of an evil deed; wrong of speech is not like it, wrong of mind is not like it."

"Do you say 'wrong of body,' Tapassin?"

"I say 'wrong of body,' friend Gotama."

"Do you say 'wrong of body,' Tapassin?"

"I say 'wrong of body,' friend Gotama."

"Do you say 'wrong of body,' Tapassin?"

"I say 'wrong of body,' friend Gotama."

In this way did the Lord up to the third time pin down Dīghatapassin the Jain to this point of controversy.

[373] When this had been said, Dīghatapassin the Jain spoke thus to the Lord:

"But, friend Gotama, how many (kinds of) wrongs do you lay down for the effecting of an evil deed, for the rolling on of an evil deed?"

"Tapassin, it is not the custom of a Tathāgata to lay down 'wrong, wrong'; Tapassin, it is the custom for a Tathāgata to lay down 'deed, deed.'"

"But how many (kinds of) deeds do you lay down, friend Gotama, for the effecting of an evil deed, for the rolling on of an evil deed?"

"I, Tapassin, lay down three (kinds of) deeds for the effecting of an evil deed, for the rolling on of an evil deed, that is to say deed of body, deed of speech, deed of mind."

[38] "But, friend Gotama, is deed of body one thing, deed of speech another, deed of mind another?"

"Tapassin, deed of body is one thing, deed of speech another, deed of mind another."

"But, friend Gotama, of these three deeds thus divided, thus particularised, which deed do you lay down as the more blamable in the effecting of an evil deed, in the rolling on of an evil deed?

Is it deed of body or is it deed of speech or is it deed of mind?"

"Tapassin, of these three deeds thus divided, thus particularised, I lay down that deed of mind is the more blamable in the effecting of an evil deed, in the rolling on of an evil deed; deed of body is not like it, deed of speech is not like it."

"Do you say 'deed of mind,' friend Gotama?"

"I say 'deed of mind,' Tapassin."

"Do you say 'deed of mind,' friend Gotama?"

"I say 'deed of mind,' Tapassin."

"Do you say 'deed of mind,' friend Gotama?"

"I say 'deed of mind,' Tapassin."

In this way did Dīghatapassin the Jain, having up to the third time pinned down the Lord to the point of controversy, rising from his seat, approach Nātaputta the Jain.

Now at that time Nātaputta the Jain was sitting down together with a very large company of householders headed by Upāli of Bālaka village.[5]

Nātaputta the Jain saw Dīghatapassin the Jain coming in the distance; having seen him, he spoke thus to Dīghatapassin the Jain.

"Well, where are you coming from, Tapassin, in the heat of the day?"

"I, revered sir, am coming from the presence of the recluse Gotama."

"Now, did you, Tapassin, have any conversation together with the recluse Gotama?"

[374] "Indeed, revered sir, I did have some conversation with the recluse Gotama."

"On what topic, Tapassin, was there some conversation between you and the recluse Gotama?"

Then Dīghatapassin the Jain told Nātaputta the Jain the whole of the conversation he had had with the Lord.

When this had been said, Nātaputta the Jain spoke thus to Dīghatapassin the Jain:

"It is good, it is good, Tapassin, that the recluse Gotama was [39] answered thus by Dīghatapassin the Jain, an instructed disciple who understands aright the teacher's instruction.

For how can an insignificant wrong of mind shine out in comparison with this important[6] wrong of body, since wrong of body itself is the more blamable in the effecting of an evil deed, in the rolling on of an evil deed - wrong of speech is not like it, wrong of mind is not like it."

When this had been said, Upāli the householder spoke thus to Nātaputta the Jain:

"Good, revered sir, is Tapassin, he is good, in that the recluse Gotama was answered thus by the revered Tapassin, an instructed disciple who understands aright the teacher's instruction.

For how can an insignificant wrong of mind shine out in comparison with this important wrong of body since wrong of body itself is the more blamable in the effecting of an evil deed, in the rolling on of an evil deed - wrong of speech is not like it, wrong of mind is not like it.

But, if you please, I am going, revered sir, I will refute the words of the recluse Gotama on this point of controversy.

If the recluse Gotama pins me down as he pinned down the revered Tapassin, then as a strong man[7] who has taken hold of the fleece of a long-fleeced ram, might tug it towards him, might tug it backwards, might tug it forwards and backwards, even so will I, speech by speech, tug the recluse Gotama forwards, tug him backwards, tug him forwards and backwards.

And even as a powerful distiller of spirituous liquor, having sunk his cask for the spirituous liquor in a deep pool of water, taking it by a corner might tug it forwards, might tug it backwards, might tug it forwards and backwards, even so will I, speech by speech, tug the recluse Gotama forwards, tug him backwards, tug him forwards and backwards.

And even as a powerful drunkard of abandoned life, having taken hold of a hair-sieve at the corner, would shake it upwards, would shake it downwards, would toss it about, even so will I, speech by speech, [375] shake the recluse Gotama upwards, shake him downwards, toss him about.

And even as a full-grown elephant, sixty years old, having plunged into a deep tank, plays at the game called the 'merry-washing,' even so methinks will I play the game of 'merry-washing' with the recluse Gotama.

But, if you please, I am going, revered sir, I will refute the words of the recluse Gotama on this point of controversy."

"Go you, householder, refute the words of the recluse Gotama on [40] this point of controversy.

For, householder, either I or Dīghatapassin the Jain or you could refute the words of the recluse Gotama."

When this had been said, Dīghatapassin the Jain spoke thus to Nātaputta the Jain:

"I am not pleased, revered sir, that the householder Upāli should refute the words of the recluse Gotama.

For the recluse Gotama is deceitful, revered sir, he knows the 'enticing device' by which he entices disciples of other sects."[8]

"It is impossible, Tapassin, it cannot come to pass that the householder Upāli should come to discipleship under the recluse Gotama.

But this situation exists - that the recluse Gotama might come to discipleship under the householder Upāli.

Go you, householder, refute the words of the recluse Gotama on this point of controversy.

Either I, householder, could refute the recluse Gotama, or Dīghatapassin the Jain, or you."

And a second time...

And a third time did Dīghatapassin the Jain speak thus to Nātaputta the Jain:

"I am not pleased..."

"Either I, householder, could refute the recluse Gotama, or Dīghatapassin the Jain, or you."

"Very well, revered sir," and the householder Upāli, having answered Nātaputta the Jain in assent, rising from his seat, having greeted Nātaputta the Jain keeping his right side towards him, approached Pāvārika's Mango Grove [376] and the Lord; having approached, having greeted the Lord, he sat down at a respectful distance.

As he was sitting down at a respectful distance, the householder Upāli spoke thus to the Lord:

"Revered sir, did not Dīghatapassin the Jain come here?"

"Yes, householder, Dīghatapassin the Jain did come here."

"And did you, revered sir, have any conversation with Dīghatapassin the Jain?"

"Indeed, householder, I did have some conversation with Dīghatapassin the Jain."

"But on what topic did you, revered sir, have this conversation with Dīghatapassin the Jain?"

Then the Lord told the householder Upāli the whole of the conversation he had had with Dīghatapassin the Jain.

When this had been said, the householder Upāli spoke thus to the Lord:

"Good, revered sir, is Tapassin, he is good, in that the Lord was answered thus by Dīghatapassin the Jain, an instructed disciple who understands aright the teacher's instruction.

For how can an insig- [41] nificant wrong of mind shine out in comparison with this important wrong of body, since wrong of body is itself the more blamable in the effecting of an evil deed, in the rolling of an evil deed - wrong of speech is not like it, wrong of mind is not like it."

"If you, householder, were to speak as one grounded on the truth, there might be some conversation here."

"I, revered sir, will speak as one grounded on the truth.

Let us have some conversation here."

"What do you think about this, householder?

There might be a Jain here who, although sick, suffering, very ill, refuses cold water[9] and takes (only) warm water; not getting cold water, he might pass away.

Now, householder, where is it that Nātaputta the Jain lays down that there is uprising for him?"

"Revered sir, there are devas called 'Mind attached.'[10]

He uprises there.

What is the reason for this?

It is, revered sir, that when he passed away he was devoted to mind."

"Householder, householder!

Take care how you explain, householder.

Your earlier (remarks) do not tally with your later, nor your later with your earlier.

And yet these words were spoken by you, householder:

'I, revered sir, will speak as one grounded on the truth.

Let us have some conversation here.'"

"Although, revered sir, the Lord speaks thus, yet wrong of body is the more blamable in the effecting of an evil deed, in the rolling on of an evil deed - wrong of speech is not like it, wrong of mind is not like it."

"What do you think about this, [377] householder?

There might be a Jain here who is controlled by the control of the fourfold watch:[11] he is wholly restrained in regard to water;[12] he is bent on warding off [42] all evil; he has shaken off all evil; he is permeated with the (warding off) of all evil - but while going out or returning he brings many small creatures to destruction.

What result, householder, does Nātaputta the Jain lay down for him?"

"Nātaputta the Jain, revered sir, lays down that, being unintentional, there is no great blame."

"But if he does intend it, householder?"

"It is of great blame, revered sir."

"In what (division[13]), householder does Nātaputta the Jain lay down 'intention'?"

"In that of wrong of mind, revered sir."

"Householder, householder!

Take care how you explain, householder.

Your earlier (remarks) do not tally with your later, nor your later with your earlier.

And yet these words were spoken by you, householder:

'I, revered sir, will speak as one grounded on the truth.

Let us have some conversation here.'"

"Although, revered sir, the Lord speaks thus, yet wrong of body is the more blamable in the effecting of an evil deed, in the rolling on of an evil deed - wrong of speech is not like it, wrong of mind is not like it."

"What do you think about this, householder?

Is this Nāḷandā rich and wealthy, crowded and populous?"

"Yes, revered sir, this Nāḷandā is rich and wealthy, crowded and populous."

"What do you think about this, householder?

A man might come here with a drawn sword[14] and speak thus:

'In a moment, in a second, I will make all the living creatures in this Nāḷandā into one heap of flesh, one mass of flesh.'

What do you think about this, householder?

Is that man able in one moment, one second, to make all the living creatures in this Nāḷandā into one heap of flesh, one mass of flesh?"[15]

"Even ten men, revered sir, even twenty, thirty, forty men, even fifty men are not able in one moment, one second, to make all the [43] living creatures in this Nāḷandā into one heap of flesh, one mass of flesh.

How then can one insignificant man shine out at this?"

"What do you think about this, householder?

A recluse or a brahman might come here, one of psychic power and attained to mastery of thought, and he might speak thus:

'I will reduce this Nāḷandā to cinders by one (act of) ill-will of mind.'

What do you think about this, householder?

Is that recluse or brahman who is of psychic power and attained to mastery of thought, able to reduce this Nāḷandā to cinders by one (act of) ill-will of mind?"

[378] "That recluse or brahman, revered sir, by one (act of) ill-will of mind is able to reduce even ten Nāḷandās to cinders, or even twenty, thirty, forty or fifty Nāḷandās.

How then can one insignificant Nāḷandā shine out at this?"

"Householder, householder!

Take care how you explain, householder.

Your earlier (remarks) do not tally with your later, nor your later with your earlier.

And yet these words were spoken by you, householder:

'I, revered sir, will speak as one grounded on the truth.

Let us have some conversation here.'"

"Although, revered sir, the Lord speaks thus, yet wrong of body is the more blamable in the effecting of an evil deed, in the rolling on of an evil deed - wrong of speech is not like it, wrong of mind is not like it."

"What do you think about this, householder?

Have you heard that the (former) forests of Daṇḍaka,[16] Kālinga,[17] Mejjha[18] and Mātanga[19] became forests again?"

"Yes, revered sir, I have heard that the (former) forests of Daṇḍaka, Kālinga, Mejjha and Mātanga became forests again."

"What do you think about this, householder?

Perhaps you have heard how it was that the (former) forests of Daṇḍaka, Kālinga, Mejjha and Mātanga became forests again?"

"Yes, revered sir, I have heard that through (an act of) ill-will of mind on the part of seers the forests of Daṇḍaka, Kālinga, Mejjha and Mātanga became forests again."

"Householder, householder!

Take care how you explain, householder.

Your earlier (remarks) do not tally with your later, nor your later with your earlier.

And yet these words were spoken by you, householder:

'I, revered sir, will speak as one grounded on the truth.

Let us have some conversation here.'"

[44] "I, revered sir, was pleased and satisfied[20] with the Lord's first illustration.

But because I wanted to hear the Lord's diversified ways of putting questions,[21] I judged that I must make myself his adversary.

It is excellent, revered sir; revered sir, it is excellent.

As, revered sir, one might set upright what had been upset, or disclose what had been covered, or show the way to one who had gone astray, or bring an oil-lamp into the darkness so that those with vision might see material shapes - even so in many a figure has dhamma been made clear by the Lord.

I, revered sir, am going to the Lord for refuge [379] and to dhamma and to the Order of monks.

May the Lord accept me as a lay-disciple going for refuge from today forth for as long as life lasts."

"Now, householder, make a proper investigation.

Proper investigation is right in the case of well-known men like yourself."[22]

"I, revered sir, am even exceedingly pleased and satisfied with that which the Lord has said to me:

'Now, householder, make a proper investigation ...
like yourself.'

For if, revered sir, members of other sects had secured me as a disciple, they would have paraded a banner all round Nāḷandā, saying:

'The householder Upāli has joined our disciplehood.'

But then the Lord spoke to me thus:

'Now, householder, make a proper investigation.

Proper investigation is right in the case of a well-known man like yourself.'

So I, revered sir, for the second time am going to the Lord for refuge and to dhamma and to the Order of monks.

May the Lord accept me as a lay-disciple going for refuge from today forth for as long as life lasts."

"For a long time, householder,[23] your family has been a well-spring to the Jains.

You will bethink you to give alms to those that approach you?"

"I, revered sir, am even exceedingly pleased and satisfied that the Lord speaks to me thus:

'For a long time ... to those that approach you?'

I have heard, revered sir, that the recluse Gotama speaks thus:

'Gifts should be given to me only, not to others should gifts be given.

Gifts should be given to my disciples only, not to the disciples of others should gifts be given.

What is given to me is alone of great fruit, what is given to others is not of great fruit.

What is given to my disciples is alone of great fruit, what is given to disciples of others is not of great fruit.'

But then the Lord urged [45] upon me giving to the Jains also.

Indeed, revered sir, we shall know the right time for that.

So I, revered sir, for the third time am going to the Lord for refuge and to dhamma and to the Order of monks.

May the Lord accept me as a lay-disciple going for refuge from today forth for as long as life lasts."

Then the Lord talked a progressive talk[24] to the householder Upāli, that is to say talk on giving, talk on moral habit, talk on heaven; he explained the peril, the vanity, the depravity of pleasures of the senses, the advantage in renouncing them.

When the Lord knew that the mind of the householder Upāli [380] was ready, malleable, devoid of the hindrances, uplifted, pleased, then he explained to him that teaching on dhamma which the Awakened Ones have themselves discovered: ill, uprising, stopping, the Way.

And as a clean cloth without black specks will easily take dye, even so, as the householder Upāli was (sitting) there on that very seat, dhamma-vision, dustless, stainless, arose to him that: whatever is of the nature to uprise, all that is of the nature to stop.

Then the householder Upāli, as one who had seen dhamma, attained to dhamma, known dhamma, plunged into dhamma, who had crossed over doubt, put away uncertainty, who had attained without another's help to full confidence in the Teacher's instruction, spoke thus to the Lord:

"Now, I, revered sir, must be going, I am very busy, there is much to be done."

"You, householder, must now do that for which you think it is the right time."

Then the householder Upāli, having rejoiced in what the Lord had said, having given thanks, rising from his seat, having greeted the Lord keeping his right side towards him, approached his own dwelling; having approached, he said to the door-keeper:

"Today, good door-keeper, I am closing the door to men and women Jains; but the door is open to the Lord's monks, nuns, men and women lay-disciples.

If any Jain comes you should speak thus to him:

'Stand still, sir, do not enter.

Today the householder Upāli has come to discipleship under the recluse Gotama; the door is closed to Jain men and women, but the door is open to the Lord's monks, nuns, men and women lay-disciples.

If you, sir, need almsfood, stand still just where you are and they will bring it to you here.'"

"Very well, sir," the door-keeper answered the householder Upāli in assent.

Then Dīghatapassin the Jain heard that the householder Upāli [46] had come to discipleship under the recluse Gotama.

Then Dīghatapassin the Jain approached Nātaputta the Jain; having approached he spoke thus to Nātaputta the Jain:

"I have heard, revered sir, that the householder Upāli has come to discipleship under the recluse Gotama."

"This is impossible, Tapassin, it cannot come to pass that the householder Upāli should come to discipleship under the recluse Gotama; but this situation exists: that the recluse Gotama might come to discipleship under the householder Upāli."

[381] And a second time ...

And a third time did Dīghatapassin the Jain speak thus to Nātaputta the Jain:

"I have heard, revered sir, that the householder Upāli has come to discipleship under the recluse Gotama."

"This is impossible, Tapassin, it cannot come to pass that the householder Upāli should come to discipleship under the recluse Gotama; but this situation exists: that the recluse Gotama might come to discipleship under the householder Upāli."

"If you please, revered sir, I am going to find out whether or not the householder Upāli has come to discipleship under the recluse Gotama."

"Do go, Tapassin, and find out whether or not the householder Upāli has come to discipleship under the recluse Gotama."

Then Dīghatapassin the Jain approached the dwelling of the householder Upāli.

The door-keeper saw Dīghatapassin the Jain coming in the distance; seeing him, he spoke thus to Dīghatapassin the Jain:

"Stand still, revered sir, do not enter.

Today the householder Upāli has come to discipleship under the recluse Gotama; the door is closed to Jain men and women, but the door is open to the Lord's monks, nuns, men and women lay-disciples.

If you, revered sir, need almsfood, stand still just where you are and they will bring it to you here."

Having said:

"Friend, I am not in need of almsfood,"

having turned back again, he approached Nātaputta the Jain; having approached, he spoke thus to Nātaputta the Jain:

"It is quite true, revered sir, that Upāli the householder has come to discipleship under the recluse Gotama.

As to that, I did not agree with you, revered sir, and I said:

'I am not pleased, revered sir, that the householder Upāli should refute the words of the recluse Gotama.

For the recluse Gotama is deceitful, revered sir, he knows the 'enticing device' by which he entices disciples of other sects.'

Now, revered sir, your householder Upāli has been enticed by the recluse Gotama by the 'enticing device.'"

[47] "This is impossible, Tapassin, it cannot come to pass that the householder Upāli should have come to discipleship under the recluse Gotama; but this situation exists: that the recluse Gotama might come to discipleship under the householder Upāli."

And a second time ...

And a third time Dīghatapassin the Jain spoke thus to Nātaputta the Jain:

"It is quite true, revered sir, that the householder Upāli has come to discipleship under the recluse Gotama.

[382] As to that, I did not agree with you, revered sir, and I said:

'I am not pleased, revered sir, that the householder Upāli should refute the words of the recluse Gotama ...'

Now, revered sir, your householder Upāli has been enticed by the recluse Gotama by the 'enticing device.'"

"This is impossible, Tapassin, it cannot come to pass that the householder Upāli should come to discipleship under the recluse Gotama; but this situation exists: that the recluse Gotama might come to discipleship under the householder Upāli.

But if you please, Tapassin, I am going to find out for myself whether or not the householder Upāli has come to discipleship under the recluse Gotama."

Then Nātaputta the Jain together with a great company of Jains approached the dwelling of the householder Upāli.

The door-keeper saw Nātaputta the Jain coming in the distance; seeing him, he spoke thus to Nātaputta the Jain:

"Stand still, revered sir, do not enter.

Today the householder Upāli has come to discipleship under the recluse Gotama; the door is closed to Jain men and women, but the door is open to the Lord's monks, nuns, men and women lay-disciples.

If you, revered sir, need almsfood, stand still just where you are and they will bring it to you here."

"Well then, good door-keeper, approach the householder Upāli; having approached, speak thus to the householder Upāli:

'Revered sir, Nātaputta the Jain is standing outside the porch of the door together with a large company of Jains, and he wishes to see you.'"

"Very good, revered sir," and the door-keeper, having answered Nātaputta the Jain in assent, approached the householder Upāli; having approached, he spoke thus to the householder Upāli:

"Revered sir, Nātaputta the Jain ... wishes to see you."

"Well then, good door-keeper, make ready seats in the middle hall with a door."[25]

[48] "Yes, revered sir," and the door-keeper, having answered the householder Upāli in assent, having made ready seats in the middle hall with a door, approached the householder Upāli; having approached, he spoke thus to the householder Upāli:

"Those seats, revered sir, have been made ready in the middle hall with a door.

Do now that for which you think it is the right time."

Then the householder Upāli [383] approached the middle hall with a door; having approached and having sat down there on the chief and best, the choicest and finest seat, he summoned the door-keeper, and said:

"Well now, good door-keeper, approach Nātaputta the Jain; having approached, speak thus to Nātaputta the Jain:

'The householder Upāli, revered sir, says:

"Do come in if you wish, revered sir."'"

"Very good, revered sir," and the door-keeper having answered the householder Upāli in assent, approached Nātaputta the Jain; having approached, he spoke thus to Nātaputta the Jain:

"The householder Upāli, revered sir, says: 'Do come in if you wish, revered sir.'"

Then Nātaputta the Jain together with the large company of Jains approached the middle hall with a door.

Then the householder Upāli, who was there first, saw Nātaputta the Jain coming in the distance; having seen him and gone out to meet him, having with his upper cloth dusted the chief and best, the choicest and finest seat, having taken possession of it, he sat down on it himself; and now when he himself had sat down on the chief and best, the choicest and finest seat, he spoke thus to Nātaputta the Jain:

"There are seats, revered sir; do sit down if you wish."

When this had been said, Nātaputta the Jain spoke thus to the householder Upāli:

"You, householder, are out of your mind; you, householder, are idiotic.

Saying: 'I, revered sir, will refute the recluse Gotama', and having gone (to him), you have returned enmeshed in a great verbal tangle.[26]

Householder, as a man, a gelder, having gone away, might return with removed testicles, or as a man, a gouger, having gone away, might return with removed eyeballs, even so did you, householder, saying, 'I revered sir, will refute the recluse Gotama,' having gone (to him), returned enmeshed in a great verbal tangle.

You, householder, were enticed by the 'enticing device' of the recluse Gotama."

"Auspicious, revered sir, is this 'enticing device,' lovely, revered sir, is this 'enticing device.'

If, revered sir, my dear kith and kin [49] could be enticed by this 'enticing,' for long it would be for the welfare and happiness of my dear kith and kin.

And, revered sir, if all nobles could be enticed by this 'enticing,' for long it would be for the [384] welfare and happiness of all nobles also.

And, revered sir, if all brahmans ...

all merchants ...

all workers could be enticed by this 'enticing,' for long it would be for the welfare and happiness of all workers also.

And, revered sir, if the world, with its devas, its Māras, its Brahmās, creation with its recluses and brahmans, its devas and men, could be enticed by this 'enticing,' for long it would be for the welfare and happiness of this world with its devas its Māras, its Brahmās, of creation with its recluses and brahmans, its devas and men.

Well then, revered sir, I will make you a parable, for by a parable some intelligent persons here understand the meaning of what has been said.[27]

Once upon a time, revered sir, a certain brahman, worn, old, full of years, had a young brahman wife, pregnant and nearing her confinement.

Then, sir, that young brahman woman spoke thus to that brahman:

'Go you, brahman, having bought a young male monkey at a shop, bring him along so that he can be a playmate for my little boy.'

When this had been said, revered sir, that brahman spoke thus to that young brahman woman:

'Wait, my dear, until you have given birth.

If you, my dear, give birth to a little boy, then having bought a young male monkey at that shop, I will bring him along so that he can be a playmate for your little boy.

But if you, my dear, give birth to a little girl, having bought a young female monkey at that shop, I will bring her along so that she can be a playmate for your little girl.' And a second time ...

And a third time that young brahman woman spoke thus to that brahman:

'Go you, brahman, having bought a young male monkey at a shop, bring him along so that he can be a playmate for my little boy.'

Then, revered sir, that brahman, being passionately in love with that young brahman woman, having bought a young male monkey at that shop, and having brought him back, spoke thus to that young brahman woman:

'My dear, this is the young male monkey, bought for you at that shop, [385] and who has come to be a playmate for your little boy.'

When this had been said, revered sir, that young brahman woman said to that brahman:

'Do you go, brahman, and taking that young male monkey, approach Rattapāni, the dyer's son; having approached, speak thus to Rattapāni, the dyer's son:

'Good [50] Rattapāni, I want this young male monkey dyed a daubed yellow colour, thoroughly pressed all round,[28] and made smooth on each side.'

Then, revered sir, that brahman, being passionately in love with that young brahman woman, taking that young male monkey, approached Rattapāni, the dyer's son; having approached, he spoke thus to Rattapāni, the dyer's son:

'Good Rattapāni, I want this young male monkey dyed a daubed yellow colour, thoroughly pressed all round, and made smooth on each side.'

When this had been said, Rattapāni, the dyer's son, spoke thus to that brahman:

'Yes, sir, this young male monkey can take colouring, but he can't take pressing or smoothing.'

Even so, revered sir, is this doctrine[29] of the foolish Jains, for it takes colouring from fools but not from the wise,[30] it does not take (kindly) to examination, it does not take (kindly) to smoothing.

Then, revered sir, after a time that brahman, taking a new pair of garments, approached Rattapāni, the dyer's son; having approached, he spoke thus to Rattapāni, the dyer's son:

'Good Rattapāni, I want this new pair of garments dyed a daubed yellow colour, thoroughly pressed all round, and made smooth on each side.'

When this had been said, Rattapāni, the dyer's son, spoke thus to that brahman:

'Yes, sir, this new pair of garments of yours can take the colouring and it can take the pressing and it can take the smoothing.'

Even so, revered sir, is the doctrine of this Lord, perfected one, fully Self-Awakened One, for it takes its colouring from the wise, not from fools, and it takes (kindly) to examination and it takes (kindly) to smoothing."

"Householder, this company including the rulers know thus: Upāli the householder is a disciple of Nātaputta the Jain.

Householder, whose disciple do we understand you to be?"

When this had been said, the householder Upāli, rising from his seat, having arranged his upper cloth over one shoulder, [386] having saluted the Lord with joined palms, spoke thus to Nātaputta the Jain: "Well then, revered sir, hear whose disciple I am:

Of the wise,[31] whose confusion is gone, whose mental barrenness is split asunder,[32] who has won to victory,
[51] Who is without ill,[33] of very even mind, of grown moral habit, of lovely wisdom,
The 'All-within,'[34] the stainless - of this Lord the disciple am I.

Of him who has no doubts, rejoicing, the material things of the world renounced,[35] of joyful sympathy,
Who is a recluse, a human being, in his last body, a man,
The peerless, the dustless - of this Lord the disciple am I.

Of him who is sure, skilled, the leader away,[36] the excellent charioteer,
The matchless, the shining, of no incertitude,[37] bringing light,
Breaking pride, the hero[38] - of this Lord the disciple am I.

Of the noblest of men, immeasurable, deep,[39] won to knowledge,[40]
Bringer of security, a knower,[41] on dhamma standing, self-controlled,
Who has gone beyond attachment, who is freed - of this Lord the disciple am I.

Of the supreme one,[42] whose lodgings are remote, who has destroyed the fetters, who is freed,
Who speaks amiably, who is purified, the flag laid low,[43] passionless,
Tamed, without impediments[44] - of this Lord the disciple am I.

[52] Of the seventh seer,[45] trust gone,[46] of threefold wisdom, Brahma-attained,[47]
Washen, skilled in the lines,[48] tranquil, who discovered knowledge.
Breaker of the citadel, Sakka[49] - of this Lord the disciple am I.

Of the pure one, whose self is developed, who has attained the attainable,[50] the expounder,
The one with recollection, whose vision is clear,[51] not bent on passion,[52] without hatred,
Impassible, attained to mastery - of this Lord the disciple am I.

[53] Of him who has gone to the highest, the meditator, inwardly unobstructed,[53] cleansed,
The unattached, the unaiming,[54] the aloof, the attainer of the highest,
The crossed over, the helper across - of this Lord the disciple am I.

Of the calmed, the one of extensive wisdom, of great wisdom, without greed,[55]
The Tathāgata, the Well-farer, incomparable person, unequalled,
The confident, the accomplished - of this Lord the disciple am I.

Of the cutter off of craving, the Awakened One, obscurity gone,[56] unstained,
Worthy of offerings, the yakkha,[57] the best of persons, beyond measure,[58]
Great, attained to the height of glory - of this Lord the disciple am I."

"But when were these splendours of the recluse Gotama collected[59] by you, householder?"

"Revered sir, it is as if there were a great heap of flowers, of different flowers,[60] [387] which a clever garland-maker or his apprentice might string into a variegated garland; even so, revered sir, this Lord has many splendours, many hundreds of splendours.

And who, revered sir, would not give praise[61] to one deserving praise?"

[54] But because Nātaputta the Jain could not bear the eulogy of the Lord, then and there hot blood issued from his mouth.[62]

Discourse with Upāli: The Sixth

 


[1] He was a merchant wbo apparently sold mantles (pāvāra) in pairs. Hence be was also called Dussapāvārika, MṬ. iii. 52; DA. ii. 873; SA. iii. 207.

[2] This name means "The one of long austerity."

Daṇḍa. Stick = to pierce; punishment; stake (out) = to claim, guard or protect; stake = to place on a stick, impale; punishment; shake a stick at: to threaten; stick = to fix in place, restrain. > the rod, staff, quarter-staff, spear

p.p. explains it all — p.p.

[3] daṇḍa, stem of a tree; stick and so penalty. P.E.D. says that in the above passage it is "(fig) a means of frightening, frightfulness, violence, teasing"; and under mano- it suggests "mind-punishment." Chalmers has "infliction"; H. Jacobi "torment" (S.B.E. xxii. p. 7); Neumann "Streich," blow (vol. ii, p. 54, n.). In the present context the word appears to mean affliction, injury, hurt, wrong done. Sometimes of course it means punishment or penalty. Cf. Dhp. 133 paṭidaṇḍa, retaliation, or exchange-blows. See Manu xii, 10: "That man is called a (true) tridaṇḍin in whose mind these three: control over his speech (vāgdaṇḍa), control over his thought (manodaṇḍa) and control over his body (kāyadaṇḍa) are firmly fixed." Here then daṇḍa appears to mean "restraint," which Monier-Williams gives for this passage. MA. iii. 52 says that the Jain idea is that kāya- and vacī-daṇḍa are without citta (present in manodaṇḍa), so that they just stir and sound like trees in the wind.

[4] Cf. SnA 63, Nd. ii. 293 where daṇḍa, a synonym for duccarita, wrong behaviour in body, speech and thought, afflicts and injures and brings to trouble and distress.

[5] Bālakiniyā see D.P.P.N.

[6] oḷārika, here the opposite of chava, "insignificant"; explained by mahanta, "great," at MA. iii. 55.

[7] As at M. i. 228 for the following similes.

[8] As at A. ii. 190.

[9] MA. iii. 57, "Jains are aware that there are conscious beings" in cold water.

[10] Manosattā; beings who depend on, hang on (laggā, laggitā) mind, MA. iii. 57; satta is here p.p. of sajjati.

[11] See D. i. 57; Dial. i. 75, n. 1. Referred to at S. i. 66. The Buddhist fourfold watch is given at D. iii. 48 f., MA. iii. 58; see K.S. i. 91.

[12] sabba-vāri-vārito. MA. iii. 58 gives two meanings: either vārita-sabba-udaka, he is restrained in regard to all water; or sabbena pāpavāraṇena vārita-pāpo, evil is restrained by the total warding off of evil. DA. i. 168, SA. i. 126-127 omit the second alternative, but speak, of evil in connection with the three remaining "watches," controls or restraints, which read: sabbavāriyuto sabbavāridhuto sabbavāriphuṭo. It would seem that MA. iii. 58 means "the total warding off of evil" of its second alternative to the first clause to include the use of (unfiltered) water, in which there would still be small living things. A.L. Basham, History of the Ājīvtkas, p. 16, translating: "He practices restraint with regard to water, he avoids all sin, by avoiding sin his sins are washed away, he is filled with the sense of all sin avoided," remarks that this is a "doubtful Interpretation on the basis of Buddhaghosa." See also Āyāraŋga Sutta, I. 13 (translation at S.B.E. XXII).

[13] koṭṭhāsa, MA. iii. 58.

[14] ukkhittāsika, as at S. iv. 173.

[15] As at M. i. 404; D. i. 52.

[16] Jā. iii. 463, v. 133 ff., 267; Miln.. 130.

[17] Jā. v. 144; Miln.. 130.

[18] Jā. iv. 389, v. 267; Miln.. 130.

[19] Jā. v. 114, 267; Miln.. 130. Also known as Mejjhārañña; cf. Jā. iv. 388f.

[20] Following passage also at D. ii. 352.

[21] pañhapaṭibhāna, as at M. i. 83.

[22] As at Vin. i. 236; A. iv. 185.

[23] Following passage at Vin. i. 236 f. (Sīha the general). And see Dial. i. 177, n. 3 for further references.

[24] As at Vin. i. 15-16, etc. See B.D. iv. 23, n. 1 for further references.

[25] MA. iii. 93 says that if a house has seven porches the middle one is the fourth; if five porches the middle one is the third; if three porches, then the second porch with a door is called the middle hall with a door. Cf. below, p. 266.

[26] vadasaŋghāṭapaṭimukka. Cf. taṇhāsaŋghāṭapaṭimukka at M. i. 271.

[27] As at M. i. 148.

[28] Said of a robe, below, and at S. ii. 282.

[29] vāda.

[30] MA. iii. 95 says that neither the doctrine of the Jains nor another useless way of speaking is liked in the (Mahā) Bhārata and the Rāmāyana, and so on.

[31] dhīra. MA. iii. 96 equates this with paṇḍicca, paṇḍita.

[32] Cf. M. Sta. 16.

[33] anigha. MA. iii. 96 says niddukkha; cf. Jā. iii. 443; PvA. 230; DhA. iii. 454; UdA. 370. A different explanation is given at SnA i. 26.

[34] vessantara, occurring also at It. p. 32 (vissantara). MA. iii. 96 explains as "poised, having crossed the unevenness (v.l. visa, poison) of passion, etc. "See Min. Anth. II. 139, n. 1.

[35] vantalokāmisa, as at Dhp. 378. The lokāmisa are identified at MA. iii. 97 with kāmaguṇa, as in the Nivāpa Sutta (M. Sta. 25).

[36] venayika, the averter, or diverter of passions, etc., or as at MA. iii. 97 the one who disciplines beings. Used in a derogatory sense of "the recluse Gotama" at M. i. 140.

[37] nikkaŋkha, as at S. ii. 84.

[38] vīra. MA. iii. 97 reads viriya, energy.

[39] Cf. M. i. 487 where the Tathāgata is deep (or unfathomable) and immeasurable as the great ocean.

[40] monapattassā ti ñāṇaɱ pattassa, MA. iii. 97.

[41] veda. This may mean that he is Knowledge itself. MA. iii. 97 says vedo vuccati ñāṇaɱ.

[42] nāga, supreme in his solitude, far from evil; cf. S. i. 28.

[43] pannadhaja; cf. M. i. 139, A. iii. 84. One whose fight is over.

[44] nippapañca; cf. Dh. 254; M. i. 65.

[45] MA. iii. 97 says that of the six seers (Buddhas) who have arisen since Vipassin, he is the seventh. Cf. Sn. 356; S. i. 192; Thag. 1240. Fur. Dial. i. 277, n. refers us to Dīgha Sutta 14 for a pioneer list of seven Buddhas "amplified later (Jā. i. 44) by inventing eighteen extra predecessors for Gotama, so that he became the twenty-fifth." Cf. SnA i. 351 and Budv.

[46] Sn. 957. Cf. "Go not by hearsay" in the discourse to the Kālāmas.

[47] Brahmapattassa. Cf. D. iii. 84, It. p. 57, etc., brahmabhūta.

"Tathāgata's footprints." Not just the Tathāgata's footprints, but footprint. Of a poem each line is a footprint, or, better 'step'.

p.p. explains it all — p.p.

[48] Cf. D. i. 88; A. i. 163; M. ii. 133 where the word padaka occurs among the items of a brahman's knowledge. MA. iii. 98 says, "having supplied the syllables, he is skilled in making verses and lines (pada)." On pada, a line, see B.D. ii. 190 f. where it refers to a line of dhamma; and as such I take it here. But I also suggest that padaka has a reference to the Tathāgata's footprints as in M. Sutta 27.

[49] purindada Sakka. MA. iii. 98 takes these as separate terms, the former meaning the bestower of the gift of dhamma; and the latter "able, strong, capable" (samattha) which of course is one meaning of sakka. But purindada is also an epithet of Sakka, and Sakka = Indra. cf. S. i. 230 where purindada is explained as "giver from town to town." A.K. Coomaraswamy, Hinduism and Buddhism, p. 76 says "insofar as the Buddha's 'life' and deeds are described, it is the doings of Brahma as Agni and Indra that are being retold," and see loc. cit. n. 256, where A.K. C. says that "in M. i. 386 the Buddha seems to be addressed as Indra." At Budv. xvi. 9 the Buddha says that in the time of the Buddha Dhammadassin he was Sakka purindada. See also C.E. Godage, The Place of Indra in Early Buddhism, p. 40: Purindada is a distortion of Vedic Puraɱdara (fort-shatterer), when the clouds were fortresses. To shatter the clouds means to obtain the life-giving rains (cf. MV. I. 102. 7). Siva (Rudra) is Tripurāntaka, he who puts an end to the three towns (built in the earth, the middle space and the firmament by a tyrant-demon, asura). See Indo-Aryan Mythology, vol. I, pp. 34, 248, 353, 376, 379, 384.

[50] pattipatta, as at Sn. 536; It. p. 32. MA. iii. 98, "who has attained those excellent things that must be attained, pattabbā."

[51] Cf. Sn. 349; A. iv. 244, vipassin.

[52] Both P.E.D. and C.P.D. translate anabhinata as above. MA. iii. 98 explains by arahatta.

[53] ananugatantara. MA, iii. 98 refers this to the unobstruction of the mind by the kilesas.

[54] appahīna. No comment at MA. iii. 98. C.P.D. refers the word in this passage to appaṇihita, aimless, not bent on anything; and s.v. appabhīta (not terrified) gives this as Siamese conjecture (?) for the appahīna of this passage. I think the corruption, whatever it is, is due to a confusion of thought between (1) being unattached (to pleasures) and not aiming at them or directing the mind towards them, and (2) not being terrified, because of being aloof from them.

[55] I.e. without greed for the five sensory pleasures.

[56] vītadhūma, without smoke.

[57] spirit, as in Sn. 478, 876, yakkhassa suddhi, "the cleansing of the spirit."

[58] atula, which cannot be weighed, imponderable.

[59] saññūḷha cf. D. ii. 267.

[60] Cf. Miln. 347.

[61] "Splendour" and "praise" are both vaṇṇa.

[62] MA. iii. 99-100 says that he fell down, was taken outside the town on a litter and then on to Pāvā, where he died, for few beings are able to live after discharging blood. According to the tradition here, Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta predeceased Gotama. M. Sta. 104 and D. Sta. 29, 33 all also agree that he died at Pāvā while Gotama was alive, but they do not agree upon where Gotama was at the time of Nātaputta's death.


Contact:
E-mail
Copyright Statement